End of Merger with Al Andalus

The merger between the CDS and Al Andalus is no more. At a community meeting on 21 July, the Al Andalus Estate Owner recommended that the merger be dissolved and, with some disagreement from a few, it would seem most were happy to go along with the recommendation. You can read the full transcript here.

Should we rejoice? Tear our clothes and gnash our teeth? I must confess to a mixture of feelings. They are, variously, disappointment, anger and relief. But the point is to think and not only to feel and I hope that we can learn some lessons from this experience.

I'm disappointed because I thought the merger was potentially good for both communities. I thought the CDS was getting more citizens and would benefit from an infusion of new blood. Al Andalus had got beyond being Michel Manen's vanity project (and jettisoned him in the process). Sure, some of their pet projects seemed to be achingly politically correct - 'Understanding Islam', promoting the 'Convivencia' as a golden era of enlightened Muslim rule - but so what? What would be the problem with having a few more lefties and liberals in the CDS even if some are the woolly-headed sort? None, from my perspective! I thought that Al Andalus would benefit too. They had examined how to establish their own governance arrangements and come up with similar proposals to our own representative democracy. Here is the CDS with a set of tried-and-tested institutions in place. Why not just adopt them and integrate the two electorates? I thought that the Al Andalucians would be interested in learning about how we did things in the CDS, joining factions, establishing new ones and participating in our politics. But, I was wrong both about the motives for the merger and what Al Andalus, or at least its leaders, wanted from it. That brings me to anger…

I'm angry because the CDS was sold a pup. We were told by the architects of the merger not to behave like conquering Conquistadores (i.e. ask any questions) but, in fact, the plan was for AA to conquer the CDS. AA did not join the CDS accepting the representative democracy we have or the institutions we have built up and refined over the years but in order to overturn them.

The AA leading clique and several of its representatives on the CDS Representative Assembly, aided and abetted by some CDS citizens with a foot in both camps, attacked everything they did not like about the CDS from day one. Most of the attack was rather incoherent. We were continually told that AA 'did things better' but not how. We were told that the CDS needed to be 'more like AA' but there were no proposals for actual change. In the end, "factions" were demonised as the problem, so the CDS changed its electoral laws to allow any citizen to stand for election to the Representative Assembly without needing a faction label. But, the AA clique were still not satisfied and threatened that, unless we changed, they might invoke the clause in the merger agreement that allowed them to dissolve it at the one year point.

The final straw, presented as the reason for dissolving the merger, was that the CDS side 'failed to deliver on its side of the agreement'. Critics pointed to the failure to establish a non-profit corporation for AA to transfer ownership of the AA sims to. This aspect of the merger agreement would have benefitted from greater inspection (and would have got it if the architects of the merger had not been so neuralgic about any questioning of their plans). Did it really make sense for the CDS to invest time and effort in establishing a non-profit when there was a perfectly good one already owning the sims? Did it make any sense to invest time and effort in doing this when AA could walk away from the agreement after a year (and continually threatened to do so and, in the end, did!)

I'm really angry because the architects of this aborted merger have wasted eighteen months of everyone's time, in both communities, with this crap. This merger has absorbed time and effort which could have been spent on other things such as bringing in new people, planning more interesting events, sim redevelopment, even expansion. Instead we have had a year-long dysfunctional relationship which has benefitted no one.

I am also relieved. The past year has been horrendous but the CDS is still here and fundamentally sound. Our institutions of government and the Constitution survived. Our finances remain solid. The prospect of replacing 'representative democracy' with 'collaborative democracy' or 'participatory democracy' or some other thing that means 'not democracy' has receded… but not entirely. Al Andalus is no longer part of the CDS and the people who resided solely in AA are gone but there were always a fair number of dual citizens and some of the more rabid attackers of the CDS are still around - many of them are current, or former prominent government members. So the fight is not over yet.

As for Al Andalus, well… the reasons that prompted the merger in the first place are still present - over-reliance on one person to pay all the bills and do all the work. It's questionable whether AA really pays its way or not. I predict it will continue, for now, but it is unlikely to survive another change in leadership.

Here are some lessons I hope we can learn from this experience:

1. We should welcome questions not stifle them.
When the CDS is facing a big decision - the Judiciary Act; merger with Al Andalus - we need to listen to people who disagree with, or who question, the proposal. If you don't, you miss out on potentially valuable insight and you store up problems for the future. It's never a good idea to make people feel they have not been listened to.

2. We need more direct talk between citizens and fewer people claiming to speak for others.
Part of the problem here is that we could never find out what AA people wanted because they never spoke for themselves! Views were always presented to us second hand by a spokesperson. This made it difficult to assess what people really think (as opposed to the spin put on it by others) and it meant views could not be discussed properly; you can't ask 'why do you think that?' through an intermediary. When we tried to find out if the AA people actually *wanted* the merger by holding a referendum, the AA leadership clique tried to stop it, prevented us from finding out what each community thought and then advised AA people to abstain from the referendum "because it's a trap"!

3. Small steps are better than grand gestures.
We had lots of options before the merger was settled on. We could have just colocated the sims; we could have just established joint groups and attended each others events; we could have discussed federation rather than union. But all of these small step options were put to one side and dismissed out of hand in favour of the maximalist option. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see this was not such a good idea.

4. Beware 'a man with a plan'.
The Judiciary Act, CARE, the merger. These were all big plans with a very forceful avatar behind them. We need to be firmer in subjecting 'big plans' to scrutiny and saying 'no' when we need to. We could have saved ourselves a hell of a lot of sturm und drang in the past few years if we simply learned to say 'no' firmly when 'a man with a plan' breezes into town and tells us why we are doing everything wrong. Better to point them in the direction of Caledon and export our problems!

Transcript of Al Andalus Town Halls 21 July 2010

Below are thre transcripts from two Al Andalus town hall meetings held on Wednesday, July 21, to discuss the state of the merger between AA and CDS.

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11:00 a.m. Meeting in the Palace Hall

[2010/07/21 11:05] Micael Khandr: Thanks for coming to this town hall meeting--I will be starting a transcript of the meeting now.

[2010/07/21 11:05] Rose Springvale: Micael, can you tell everyone why?

[2010/07/21 11:05] Rose Springvale: because we have never transcripted meetings in AA

[2010/07/21 11:05] Micael Khandr: As you all know, this meeting is for us as AA residents and citizens to discuss the status of the AA/CDS merger.

[2010/07/21 11:05] Rose Springvale: hey Kami

[2010/07/21 11:06] Delia Lake: hi Kami

[2010/07/21 11:06] Kaseido Quandry: Kamilah!

[2010/07/21 11:06] Kamilah Hauptmann haz tea, only 25 natives fell to our muskets to secure it.

[2010/07/21 11:06] Micael Khandr: Rose, Delia and I are members of the non-profit board of Virtual Democracy, Inc., which is the "owner" of the AA sims.

[2010/07/21 11:06] Lilith Ivory: Hi Kamilah

[2010/07/21 11:06] Kamilah Hauptmann: *mew*

[2010/07/21 11:06] Rose Springvale: smiles at tea

[2010/07/21 11:06] Kamilah Hauptmann: :)

[2010/07/21 11:06] Micael Khandr: We met last week to discuss the state of the merger, and want to share our thoughts with you, and

[2010/07/21 11:07] Micael Khandr: receive your thoughts

[2010/07/21 11:08] Micael Khandr: Our board felt that the conditions of the merger have not been met, and so for that reason we don't erecommend continuing the merger

[2010/07/21 11:08] Delia Lake: --btw there is a copy of the merger agreement in the box on the floor

[2010/07/21 11:08] Micael Khandr: but we want to hear from you as well.

[2010/07/21 11:08] Micael Khandr: Rose, if you don't mind, could you summarize the issues of the conditions not being met?

[2010/07/21 11:08] Rose Springvale: sure...

[2010/07/21 11:09] Rose Springvale: i did a draft last week, but let me just do the readers digest version

[2010/07/21 11:09] Rose Springvale: first, AA is a non profit, educational project

[2010/07/21 11:09] Delia Lake: hi Jamie

[2010/07/21 11:09] Lilith Ivory: hi Jamie

[2010/07/21 11:09] Kaseido Quandry: hey Jamie

[2010/07/21 11:09] Alaya Kumaki is Online

[2010/07/21 11:09] Jamie Palisades nods politely, listens

[2010/07/21 11:09] Rose Springvale: the agreement said that CDS would form a non profit, to receive the transfer. Since we already had to form one, we've offered that to cds, under an operating agreement

[2010/07/21 11:10] Rose Springvale: to date, there is no such agreement

[2010/07/21 11:10] Rose Springvale: i approached sonja a few weeks ago, in hopes of facillitating this

[2010/07/21 11:10] Rose Springvale: and she agreed that it was her responsibility, yet none of us have heard anything

[2010/07/21 11:10] Rose Springvale: second

[2010/07/21 11:11] Rose Springvale: theres been no effort to administer the sims, since, nods in recognition, Jamie left office

[2010/07/21 11:11] Rose Springvale: need to get my list to see what else, unless you or delia have it Micael?

[2010/07/21 11:12] Micael Khandr: I don't have the list, Rose--but that might be a good point to allow others to react

[2010/07/21 11:12] Rose Springvale: okay

[2010/07/21 11:12] Delia Lake: i do have a couple of points, but would also like to hear others speak first

[2010/07/21 11:13] Micael Khandr: Sorry, Delia--will come back to you :)

[2010/07/21 11:13] Micael Khandr: Anyone?

[2010/07/21 11:13] Jamie Palisades raises his hand for a question, when it's time, but is not in a rush.

[2010/07/21 11:13] Micael Khandr: Sure Jamie--go ahead.

[2010/07/21 11:13] Delia Lake: what are your feelings about this merger. you have a say in this as citizens of AA

[2010/07/21 11:14] Kaseido Quandry: well, if nobody else is going to take that one...

[2010/07/21 11:14] Micael Khandr: Go for it!

[2010/07/21 11:14] Jamie Palisades: Thanks. Rose, Delia, you are among other thing the heads of two of the three branches of government in CDS right now. What wqould have bene required from CDS, and is it really only Sonja alone who can do it?

[2010/07/21 11:15] Jamie Palisades: sorry, forgive the typos, I am not getting better with that :)

[2010/07/21 11:15] Rose Springvale: go ahead delia, i need to get some information

[2010/07/21 11:16] Rose Springvale: Jamie

[2010/07/21 11:16] Jamie Palisades: mm hmm?

[2010/07/21 11:16] Delia Lake: the first thing that is missing for me is any interest from the people who are 5 original sim only citizens in what AA is about, what the purpose and activities of these sims are

[2010/07/21 11:17] Rose Springvale: who else could do it? the board met with the full RA and tried to answer questions. I met with sonja privately on june 23

[2010/07/21 11:17] Delia Lake: most of what i hear is how people can change AA, not understand AA

[2010/07/21 11:17] Rose Springvale: she reported to the RA last meeting, and didn't even mention AA

[2010/07/21 11:18] Delia Lake: there has certainly been discussion on the forum and some in the RA about what to do with AA

[2010/07/21 11:18] Jamie Palisades: Delia, I suppose any merger would create change. The question is what AA's owners are willing to do. Rose, is Sonja's silence is the sole criterion then? She seems like a very sleepy, inactive chancellor .. but historically, most of them have been :)

[2010/07/21 11:19] Wasp Thor: no kidding

[2010/07/21 11:19] Wasp Thor: hahahaha

[2010/07/21 11:19] Jamie Palisades: I gather that Michael, Delia and Rose really own AA, so perhaps you should tell us what if anything you have already decided?

[2010/07/21 11:19] Rose Springvale: no, the treasurer has also not worked with us.

[2010/07/21 11:19] Delia Lake: but not about how AA as an historical set of builds with a community rooted in tolerance, education and culture and with a different but i believe complementary form of democracy could contribute to the richness of the CDS

[2010/07/21 11:19] Rose Springvale: That's not the case jamie.

[2010/07/21 11:19] Jamie Palisades: (own in the sense of VDI Board, of course)

[2010/07/21 11:20] Delia Lake: and that goes beyond the functions or lack thereof of admin

[2010/07/21 11:20] Delia Lake: the treasurer has not worked with us that i know of, and neither has the chancellor

[2010/07/21 11:20] Rose Springvale: are you saying as a citizen of AA that you want to keep working on this Jamie?

[2010/07/21 11:20] Rose Springvale: because this meeting is about what AA wants to do going forward

[2010/07/21 11:20] Rose Springvale: not what cds did or didn't do

[2010/07/21 11:21] Kaseido Quandry: I agree with Delia, and then some. The only will with respect to AA shown by anyone in the CDS administration is hostility towards the merger and to the most active people in AA, and a desire to ensure that no actual blending of the communities takes place

[2010/07/21 11:21] Carolyn Saarinen: Sorry I'm late folks

[2010/07/21 11:21] Rose Springvale: hi caro

[2010/07/21 11:21] Kaseido Quandry: hi Caro

[2010/07/21 11:22] Lilith Ivory: Hi Caro :)

[2010/07/21 11:22] Jamie Palisades: Hm. So, the treasurer's failure to do her job has been rbbrought to the attention of the SC and RA? Or is it just your feeling that it;s too much hassle to bother? I gather than your presentations are intended to inform peolpe her about your impresison of whather it;s a good ideal to kill the merger, and perhaps share your own views. I f CDS seems to you (even though Delia and Rose run some of it) to be hostile, well, then, that's a judgment you ought to take into account. I am sinmply wondering how much of it in s institutional, and how much personal.

[2010/07/21 11:23] Kaseido Quandry: Institutional in what sense, Jamie?

[2010/07/21 11:23] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I have got the feeling that they think the only way to break the agrement is to scare AA away so we say no

[2010/07/21 11:23] Delia Lake: i also worry from the perspective of a chartered nonprofit that we could lose that status if the CDS administration would want and do nothing more than divide all the AA sims into smaller plots for the sole purpose of gaining profit--which is essentially what has been stated by some in power

[2010/07/21 11:23] Jamie Palisades: The preot from VDI board members seems to be that they find CDS (or the chancellor and treasurer) impossible to deal with. Fair summary?

[2010/07/21 11:23] Jamie Palisades: *report

[2010/07/21 11:23] Kaseido Quandry: muhammad, yeah, I agree with you

[2010/07/21 11:23] Wasp Thor: Actually everything we do is personal

[2010/07/21 11:23] Rose Springvale: not impossible, unwilling

[2010/07/21 11:23] Jamie Palisades: I agree muhammad :)

[2010/07/21 11:24] Kaseido Quandry: unwilling to actively hostile

[2010/07/21 11:24] Jamie Palisades: a few old people in power there - who shar epower now with delia and rose - want you to go awya, but they can;t make you, bexcaue you have rights :) so they hope you will leave, and do what they can;t.

[2010/07/21 11:24] Micael Khandr: I agree wioth Delia, regardless of the lack of CDS action in fulfilling the merger agreement, it seems to me that the culture of AA and the culture of CDS are not "merging"Actually, Jamie--I also question whether the culture of AA will survive the opposition to the way we approach decisions and such.

[2010/07/21 11:24] Alessitaah Eiren: Buenas Tardes

[2010/07/21 11:24] Alessitaah Eiren: Good Afternoon

[2010/07/21 11:24] Kaseido Quandry: I don't believe the personalities in the CDS want us, but more importantly, I think that AA gets no benefit, and a lot of damage, from the association - and that's been a very hard conclusion for me to reach.

[2010/07/21 11:25] Carolyn Saarinen: I agree

[2010/07/21 11:25] Jamie Palisades: Micael, might we have erred in assessing that as possible last year? Sort of "now that we thought about it we do not really want a democracy"?

[2010/07/21 11:25] Wasp Thor: We tried to look at the merger last year with an open mind and so far I see nothing in favor of the merger

[2010/07/21 11:25] Delia Lake: Jamie, on a personal preference level, i have been for this merger since the beginning, and until about 3 weeks ago--when i was on vacation and got to thinking about things without any access to a computer

[2010/07/21 11:25] Jamie Palisades: I'd lik ethat better as a reason than peronsal spats :)

[2010/07/21 11:26] Kaseido Quandry: Jamie, I absoltely reject their branding, that the only way to have a democracy is to have a faction-ridden bureaucracy with the occasional election

[2010/07/21 11:26] Micael Khandr: I think we can do more to experiment with democracy by separating AA and trying out models that emphasis culture and dialogue, rather than conflict and beuracracy

[2010/07/21 11:26] Kaseido Quandry cheers Micael

[2010/07/21 11:26] Wasp Thor: I agree

[2010/07/21 11:26] Jamie Palisades chuckles - you know what i think there Kas

[2010/07/21 11:27] Kaseido Quandry: I do, Jamie - there's a good honest range of opinion there

[2010/07/21 11:27] Delia Lake: it 's not about not wanting a democracy. but for me at least it is some about not wanting a rigid, controlled and controlling structure that is called democracy but in many ways does not listen to the voices of the non government citizens

[2010/07/21 11:27] Kaseido Quandry: oh yes - and even shouts them down

[2010/07/21 11:28] Carolyn Saarinen: I am especially tired of that myself

[2010/07/21 11:28] Micael Khandr: Personally, I am much more interested in the so-called "WASP" clause--named after our good friend here--which allows us to stop the merger process if we feel it is not in the best interests of AA--and, btw, it seems that the citizens of CDS feel the same way!!

[2010/07/21 11:28] Rose Springvale: hi tui

[2010/07/21 11:28] Rose Springvale: stui

[2010/07/21 11:28] Rose Springvale: for the record

[2010/07/21 11:29] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui

[2010/07/21 11:29] Rose Springvale: i think that the majority of CDS citizens do not feel that way. and really want to keep AA

[2010/07/21 11:29] Rose Springvale: its only the vocal ones who are negative

[2010/07/21 11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Evening Ladies and Gentlemen and Stui's

[2010/07/21 11:29] Rose Springvale: some are distraught over it

[2010/07/21 11:29] Micael Khandr: Yes, I agree Rose--the opposition is the ones who post on the forums

[2010/07/21 11:29] Carolyn Saarinen: this hypothetical 'silent majority' has blown it then!

[2010/07/21 11:30] Carolyn Saarinen: They could have helped and have done nothing

[2010/07/21 11:30] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well the Merger is not really wholeheartedly benefiting AA

[2010/07/21 11:30] Kaseido Quandry: Yes, because it's unfortunately the loud opposition who gets in the way of *AA* being an effective and pleasant community

[2010/07/21 11:30] Delia Lake: the original documents of Neualtenberg, the ones on which our CDS system is founded calls for experiments with forms of democracy--FORMS-- and EXPERIMENTS. not saying that we've done it this way for a while so we have all the answers and this one narrow form of democracy is the only right one. and that is the comment type i have gotten back for months when trying to explore how we might use sl and this combined community to explore and experiment with flavors of democracy that might offer even better than what we have so far in rl

[2010/07/21 11:30] Jamie Palisades smiles. You are always a gentleman, Stui

[2010/07/21 11:30] Delia Lake: hi Stui

[2010/07/21 11:31] Kaseido Quandry: Yes, Delia, the current system is an article of religous faith, of "my country right or wrong." Gwyn today came out on the forums and said she's opposed to all experimetns, even ones she'd agree were better. I think that seals it.

[2010/07/21 11:31] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you can spend more time arguing the case at RA level for anything AA related and be defeated by people who don't invest the time to know the wider world than their own pet projekts

[2010/07/21 11:31] Carolyn Saarinen: So we have a cDS divided into the apathetic and the actively hostile where AA is concerned. What do we gain from that?

[2010/07/21 11:32] Micael Khandr: My recommendation for "de-merging" is to give AA an opportunity to dream about alternate models of democratic community.

[2010/07/21 11:32] Carolyn Saarinen: CDS is irretrevably stuck in it's rut.

[2010/07/21 11:32] muhammedyussif Wikinger: did we not work on that some years ago with no result :-(

[2010/07/21 11:32] Carolyn Saarinen: I see no benefit in sharing it with them.

[2010/07/21 11:32] Wasp Thor: That's for sure

[2010/07/21 11:32] Rose Springvale: micael, does that mean you don't believe in representative democracy?

[2010/07/21 11:32] Carolyn Saarinen: Let them have their miserable little clique

[2010/07/21 11:33] Rose Springvale: lets also try to remember that many of "them" are "us"

[2010/07/21 11:33] Micael Khandr: I believe in personal autonomy and the demands of the common good. And representative democracy, as long as both are protected

[2010/07/21 11:33] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the thing could be that now we are just too big as a whole to achieve that which must be done to serve people specifically for trying to create a universal policy for specific problems

[2010/07/21 11:33] Carolyn Saarinen whispers: Huh. Pip did ask why he's now banned from my land!

[2010/07/21 11:34] Delia Lake: i believe very much in democracy, and in representative democracy

[2010/07/21 11:34] Delia Lake: but what is often missing to me in the CDS is the representative part

[2010/07/21 11:34] Wasp Thor: AA is and has always been a very happy place, I don't want to change any of that

[2010/07/21 11:34] Wasp Thor: we come here to have fun and make nice friends

[2010/07/21 11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Wasp it'll be ok :)

[2010/07/21 11:35] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and hope somone else pays the bills?

[2010/07/21 11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll keep smiling and throwing water on the wicked people

[2010/07/21 11:35] Wasp Thor: why not hahahaha

[2010/07/21 11:35] Kaseido Quandry grins at Stui

[2010/07/21 11:35] Micael Khandr: I think there is a way for individuals within a community to know that their voice has power, and that they are collaborators in decision making--but the current CDS structure doesn't seem to make that happen.

[2010/07/21 11:35] Delia Lake: when the merger was proposed i was very much for it

[2010/07/21 11:35] Carolyn Saarinen: Yeah 'Pat's money'!

[2010/07/21 11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: pat's pocket money

[2010/07/21 11:36] Carolyn Saarinen: He's so good to us

[2010/07/21 11:36] Rose Springvale: lets not do this... lets keep to the idea ?

[2010/07/21 11:36] Micael Khandr: Thank you, Rose--please let us focus on issues, not personalities

[2010/07/21 11:36] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I like your shoes Kas

[2010/07/21 11:36] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think the idea of democrasy was good - how will it be without the merger?

[2010/07/21 11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: hey my personality's all I got

[2010/07/21 11:37] Delia Lake: i really thought it could be a marvelous laboratory for virtual democracy. so many viewpoints and ideas and rl experiences with democracy coming together. but that is not what has happened

[2010/07/21 11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and a tail :)

[2010/07/21 11:37] Carolyn Saarinen: we had democracy before the merger

[2010/07/21 11:37] Kaseido Quandry: thanks Stui :)

[2010/07/21 11:37] Carolyn Saarinen: we've gone backwards since

[2010/07/21 11:38] Rose Springvale: so it sounds like muhammed feels differently?

[2010/07/21 11:38] Delia Lake: and add to that that the conditions specified in the merger have been all but ignored since you left office, Jamie, i find that i no longer believe it is such a good idea. not for now anyway

[2010/07/21 11:38] Carolyn Saarinen: or off on a side-track anyway

[2010/07/21 11:38] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes - I like the merger to continue

[2010/07/21 11:38] Rose Springvale: why?

[2010/07/21 11:38] Micael Khandr: In my role as facilitator, I'm going to ask that we make sure everyone has had a chance to say where he or she is regarding the merger before Noon, SLTime.

[2010/07/21 11:38] muhammedyussif Wikinger: the dtructure is good and the ecoomu too

[2010/07/21 11:39] muhammedyussif Wikinger: economy

[2010/07/21 11:39] muhammedyussif Wikinger: structure

[2010/07/21 11:39] Delia Lake: say more muhammed if you would please

[2010/07/21 11:39] Carolyn Saarinen: 'structure'?

[2010/07/21 11:39] Micael Khandr: Given what some of us have said, MY, why do you see the structure as 'good'?

[2010/07/21 11:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think the institutions (structure) works well and then we can do other things besides that

[2010/07/21 11:40] Rose Springvale: you mean, RA, Chancellor, and SC?

[2010/07/21 11:40] Delia Lake: other things like what that we can do?

[2010/07/21 11:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: When I compare it with RL structures I find it well functioning

[2010/07/21 11:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: if we have patiance

[2010/07/21 11:41] muhammedyussif Wikinger: patience

[2010/07/21 11:41] Carolyn Saarinen is all out of that

[2010/07/21 11:41] muhammedyussif Wikinger: when we all are in the same boat we will coopewrate

[2010/07/21 11:41] Micael Khandr: OK, ty MY, can I hear from some of the othersas well?

[2010/07/21 11:41] muhammedyussif Wikinger: cooperate

[2010/07/21 11:42] Micael Khandr: Frances, Wasp, Lilith--any thoughts?

[2010/07/21 11:42] Kamilah Hauptmann: The trouble with the 'same boat' in SL s the lifespan, portability, and replacibility of an avatar and land. Don't ike it, take your boat and leave, and people will.

[2010/07/21 11:43] Wasp Thor: we have given this a year and we are not happy, I vote no merger

[2010/07/21 11:43] Carolyn Saarinen: I can throw in my two penn'orth

[2010/07/21 11:43] Micael Khandr: Please do

[2010/07/21 11:43] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patience gives away most of the rights we have now, action retains the rights and gives us the freedom to do what we should have had from CDS before now

[2010/07/21 11:43] Carolyn Saarinen: Ok, as Wasp says we've given this a year.

[2010/07/21 11:43] Carolyn Saarinen: Cds is no better now than a year ago.

[2010/07/21 11:44] Carolyn Saarinen: No better than the place I left to come to AA over two years ago.

[2010/07/21 11:44] muhammedyussif Wikinger: money comes and money goes and the surplus is growing

[2010/07/21 11:44] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's not accepted as fact that CDS has delivered upon it's requirements towards AA

[2010/07/21 11:44] Micael Khandr: Jamie and Kas--jump in!

[2010/07/21 11:44] Kaseido Quandry: yes, they overcharge, underspend, and sit on a vast fortune of residents' real money - that is *not* a plus

[2010/07/21 11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and there has been more than evident passive aggression in the relationship

[2010/07/21 11:45] Carolyn Saarinen: It's a beurocratic mess, dominated by a handful of truely malicious people who will do anything to oppose those who they dislike.

[2010/07/21 11:45] muhammedyussif Wikinger: but it is useful

[2010/07/21 11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: mostly aimed at AA

[2010/07/21 11:45] Carolyn Saarinen: We would have to fight every day just to stand still.

[2010/07/21 11:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have sat on RA since AA merged

[2010/07/21 11:45] Kaseido Quandry: In short, I think the past six months - which is all I can speak to - have drained energy and optimism from AA. The CDS is more resistant to accomodating us, or engaging in dialog and mutual change, with each passing week. Let's be done with it.

[2010/07/21 11:46] Rose Springvale: can you think of terms to an agreement that would satisfy those concerns?

[2010/07/21 11:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it hasn't been an altogether enjoyable experience

[2010/07/21 11:46] Carolyn Saarinen: CDS has been attracting and then driving out new residence for years for just that reason. that's why it does not grow.

[2010/07/21 11:46] Micael Khandr: Not to put MY on the spot, but my read at the moment is that he is in the minority here wanting to maintain the merger--are there others who are in favor of the merger as is?

[2010/07/21 11:46] Rose Springvale: is Jamie right? are we not exercising our rights as citizens in CDS?

[2010/07/21 11:46] Jamie Palisades: Hm, didn;t say that, though I do think AA sort of gave up after the last election

[2010/07/21 11:46] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think the storm will stop when the merger is final

[2010/07/21 11:47] muhammedyussif Wikinger: they have not interest to go on then

[2010/07/21 11:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as the Queen put it (though altered) it's been a year upon which I will not look back with undiluted pleasure

[2010/07/21 11:47] Delia Lake: muhammed, how has the structure been useful to AA in your opinion. i do believe we need to look seriously at what has worked during the past year as well

[2010/07/21 11:48] Lilith Ivory: I would like AA to stay also but I´m worried CDS might destroy everything that makes AA a ggod place to live

[2010/07/21 11:48] Carolyn Saarinen: MY it's their reason for being!

[2010/07/21 11:48] Kaseido Quandry: I think it would just get worse -there's absolutely no reason for it not to, as the old guard finds us more and more of a threat to the old ways with every week we actually do things and speak for ourselves

[2010/07/21 11:48] muhammedyussif Wikinger: AA need the incomes to keep high procentage of common soace

[2010/07/21 11:48] Carolyn Saarinen: the politacl animals of CDS have been behaving like this for years!

[2010/07/21 11:48] muhammedyussif Wikinger: space

[2010/07/21 11:48] Rose Springvale: no, muhammmed, AA covers its costs

[2010/07/21 11:48] Rose Springvale: we dont need CDS money

[2010/07/21 11:48] Kaseido Quandry: nor the unending accusations that we do

[2010/07/21 11:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: CDS benefits reluctantly from our community

[2010/07/21 11:49] Carolyn Saarinen: don't fall for the propaganda

[2010/07/21 11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but hands back little appreciation of it

[2010/07/21 11:49] Rose Springvale: don't know how many spreadsheets i have to draft to show that

[2010/07/21 11:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Is it not because of your generosity Rose?

[2010/07/21 11:49] Delia Lake: the money issues raised mostly on the forum are a misreading of the accounting. even Sudane says so

[2010/07/21 11:49] Rose Springvale: nope. look at the spreadsheets

[2010/07/21 11:49] Micael Khandr: I think we can be better alone--and I think perhaps CDS can be better alone.

[2010/07/21 11:49] Kaseido Quandry: I agree

[2010/07/21 11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thorns in the side of bears should be pulled out

[2010/07/21 11:49] Jamie Palisades: Michael, I have been involved in AA long enough to voice this much of an opinion. Whoever dcides for AA, they should act in the best interests of AA, which means that your belief about whether it's possible to coexist peacefully is important. If it is the group's view that the current CDS people cannot be worked with well, and that you genuinely tried, there's no shame in leaving. (However, I do think you ought to ask WHAT the continuing financial arrangements should be for AA, if you de-merge.)

[2010/07/21 11:49] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I have tried to look but it is not easy to understand

[2010/07/21 11:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or else they get rowdy

[2010/07/21 11:49] Kaseido Quandry: they're very clear on what they want - they should have it.

[2010/07/21 11:50] Carolyn Saarinen: and rabid dogs should be quaratined

[2010/07/21 11:50] Wasp Thor: Thay are not a happy bunch, so why hangout with them

[2010/07/21 11:50] Kaseido Quandry: hear hear, wasp

[2010/07/21 11:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don't personally believe that CDS stands for my personal vision of AA

[2010/07/21 11:50] Carolyn Saarinen applauds

[2010/07/21 11:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's not a very inclusive environment

[2010/07/21 11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and to me that is not AA

[2010/07/21 11:51] Micael Khandr: Jamie--talk a bit more about the continuing financial arrangments

[2010/07/21 11:51] Micael Khandr: please

[2010/07/21 11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AA is about inclusion

[2010/07/21 11:51] Jamie Palisades: It's sort of interesting to my ear to hear two officers of the CDS governmetn and thre former CDS RA members say "them" about CDS, and "us" a lot. The one-year clause might just have invited you all, and the other CDS people as well, to just wait yoru year and never really fully go for it.

[2010/07/21 11:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: a bit like a family :)

[2010/07/21 11:51] Jamie Palisades: There has ion two years of talking about this seemed to be NOT "us"-ifying on EITHER side

[2010/07/21 11:51] Jamie Palisades: yes - one where you are talking about divorce, stui :)

[2010/07/21 11:52] Jamie Palisades: Michel: on money issues

[2010/07/21 11:52] Jamie Palisades: 3 things

[2010/07/21 11:52] Micael Khandr: Or, the one-year could have given us a chance to "fall in love" with each other :)

[2010/07/21 11:52] Jamie Palisades: 1. CDS was and is flush. We had hoped this would ghive some stability to A, which rides on a tighters margin

[2010/07/21 11:52] Delia Lake: another question here, if we were to continue merged, what people who are citizens just ot the old CDS and are active in the community would be our partners in this venture? one of the other accusations that has been hurled publicly is that the AA is out to take over the CDS so that is what has prompted this question from me

[2010/07/21 11:52] Carolyn Saarinen: Arranged marriage is one thing, forced marriage is another

[2010/07/21 11:52] Wasp Thor: I honesty think we tried

[2010/07/21 11:52] Jamie Palisades: 3. CDS is financially responsble for A now, assuming that the EO here lets it be :)

[2010/07/21 11:52] Wasp Thor: it has not worked

[2010/07/21 11:52] Jamie Palisades: oops that was 2

[2010/07/21 11:53] Jamie Palisades: and 3

[2010/07/21 11:53] Jamie Palisades: if AA leaves CDS, I do not anticipate any real "dividison" of money problems, but i WOULD ask what will be the continuing basis for AA solvency?

[2010/07/21 11:53] Jamie Palisades: after all

[2010/07/21 11:53] Jamie Palisades: someone;s credit card ALWAYS backed up SL sims

[2010/07/21 11:53] Jamie Palisades: always always

[2010/07/21 11:54] Jamie Palisades: iso, what's the fiscal future here without CDS? (done)

[2010/07/21 11:54] Micael Khandr: TY

[2010/07/21 11:54] Delia Lake: as the Dean of the SC my duties are more reactive than proactive, very unlike the RA in that respect

[2010/07/21 11:55] Micael Khandr: We have about 10 minutes left--has everyone who wanted to speak, spoken?

[2010/07/21 11:55] Delia Lake: and i have to say that i have been a citizen of the CDS for almost 4 yrs now and intend to remain a citizen of the CDS no matter what the decision on the merger

[2010/07/21 11:56] Delia Lake: Frances, is there something you would like to say, or did you and i missed it? it is of course ok if you do not want to speak

[2010/07/21 11:56] Rose Springvale: is there any interest in extending the merger agreement for a period of time to work out the legal details? last time we met, the RA decided they needed an attorney,

[2010/07/21 11:56] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think AA will gain continuing the merger

[2010/07/21 11:57] Frances Ying: i'm still getting to grips with things, but plz be assured i'm listening

[2010/07/21 11:57] Carolyn Saarinen: Wow Cleo got that passed?;)

[2010/07/21 11:57] Micael Khandr: What is the potential problem(s) just de-merging now, Rose?

[2010/07/21 11:57] Kaseido Quandry: No. This isn't about process, or documentation, or agreements. It's about a fundamental incompatibility between the two communities.

[2010/07/21 11:57] Rose Springvale: it wasn't legislation

[2010/07/21 11:57] Carolyn Saarinen: Rose if Cleo's opinions hold sway, the case for de-merger is made!

[2010/07/21 11:57] Rose Springvale: the reality is that the people in both projects basically believe in the same things.

[2010/07/21 11:58] Rose Springvale: i gave many of you the note i wrote this morning, and want you to know that this is not easy for me

[2010/07/21 11:58] Kaseido Quandry: but CDS believes it's their way or the highway. I choose highway.

[2010/07/21 11:58] Rose Springvale: i feel i led AA to CDS as a solution to things we didn't want to address

[2010/07/21 11:58] Micael Khandr: Like . . . ?

[2010/07/21 11:58] Rose Springvale: it wasn't about money, it wasn't about structure, it was about freeing the people here to do the things they care about. Albaycin, convivencia, AiC, et

[2010/07/21 11:59] Rose Springvale: And it felt to me that CDS coudl use some of the vitality of our people

[2010/07/21 11:59] Carolyn Saarinen: Like vampires

[2010/07/21 11:59] Rose Springvale: the merger agreement had a lot of support

[2010/07/21 11:59] Rose Springvale: and i think the people still support it

[2010/07/21 11:59] Jamie Palisades: Hm. But?

[2010/07/21 12:00] Rose Springvale: but without effort from anyone to make the deal work, i don't know how to proceed

[2010/07/21 12:00] Rose Springvale: i am tired

[2010/07/21 12:00] Kaseido Quandry: In theory, definitely. And the more so the farther people are from dealing with the CDS old guard

[2010/07/21 12:00] Rose Springvale: i don't want to log on every day to hear one side or the other tell me the latest greatest sin

[2010/07/21 12:00] Wasp Thor: I know precious

[2010/07/21 12:00] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I'm willing to work on that

[2010/07/21 12:00] Jamie Palisades: Which is what moved us to try it in the first place, really - get some help for Rose as AA EO.

[2010/07/21 12:00] Micael Khandr: We are at Noon--let me summarize what I heard.

[2010/07/21 12:01] Lilith Ivory: but this has not happened as it seems :(

[2010/07/21 12:01] Micael Khandr: The majority of this group of citizens favors de-merger, some with hesitancy, others with great desire.

[2010/07/21 12:02] Micael Khandr: issues that need to be address have to do with finances, and responsibilities, if AA is back on its own

[2010/07/21 12:02] Micael Khandr: There now is the VDI, which can take more responsibility for the EO functions of AA

[2010/07/21 12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have the youtube for today it's sorta ironic

[2010/07/21 12:03] Micael Khandr: any amendments to my hearing?

[2010/07/21 12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Micael it needs a song

[2010/07/21 12:03] Kaseido Quandry: I think that's a good summary, Micael

[2010/07/21 12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: musical accompaniment

[2010/07/21 12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrzisSAoU5U

[2010/07/21 12:04] Micael Khandr: OK--I will end the official transcript now--there is one more town hall this evening at 7 p.m.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

19:03] Micael Khandr: Let's begin--Delia is almost here.

[19:04] Rose Springvale: Hi Delia

[19:04] Mick Stenvaag is Online

[19:04] Tor Karlsvalt: hi Delia

[19:04] Soro Dagostino: Hello Delia

[19:04] Delia Lake: hi everyone. sorry to be late

[19:04] muhammedyussif Wikinger: Hi

[19:04] Ranma Tardis: you need a day like mine

[19:04] Madeleine Fitzgerald is Offline

[19:04] Micael Khandr: As you know, Rose, Delia and I are the board of a non-profit called Virtual Democracy, Inc. and we met last week to discuss the state of the merger.

[19:05] Micael Khandr: We wanted to share our thoughts with you, and to have you share your thoughts with all of us as well.

[19:05] Micael Khandr: We feel that the conditions of the merger have not been carried through, and so we feel that to continue it would not be in the best interests of AA

[19:06] Ranma Tardis: the merger has become toxic, best to let it go

[19:06] Soro Dagostino: So the whiners win?

[19:06] Micael Khandr: We also feel that a separation of AA from CDS would allow both AA and CDS to develop their own ciltures accordingly

[19:06] Ranma Tardis: win what?

[19:06] Rose Springvale: we are here to listen to your opinions soro

[19:06] Soro Dagostino: The toxic contest.

[19:06] Ranma Tardis: next year there will be a new spilt in the cds

[19:06] Carolyn Saarinen: yep Soro they are the most toxic ;)

[19:07] Ranma Tardis: am here on a trip of discovery

[19:07] Micael Khandr: Rose and Delia--would you like to add anything to my rather succinct statement before we open it up to discussion by everyone?

[19:07] Tor Karlsvalt: The whiners loose but just don't know it.

[19:07] Soro Dagostino: that was implied.

[19:07] Rose Springvale: i am happy to answer specific technical questions Micael, but i think you have covered the basics and would rather hear what others have to say

[19:08] Rose Springvale: i'm rather the technician of the group, you and delia are more the idea people

[19:08] Tor Karlsvalt: rose, will AA move it's sims?

[19:08] Micael Khandr: Hard to think sometimes, though . . .

[19:08] Rose Springvale: smile, let delia take that one tor

[19:08] Delia Lake: i would like to hear what everyone feels about the merger and what you all think we should do

[19:09] Tor Karlsvalt: I wish AA could stay.

[19:09] Soro Dagostino: /Raise hand

[19:09] Micael Khandr: Soro?

[19:09] Delia Lake: re moving the sims, it is my request that we do not move them at this time

[19:09] Rose Springvale: they should know why delia

[19:09] Tor Karlsvalt: but I am worried too. There could be support for dismantaling AA in some way.

[19:09] Micael Khandr: How so, Tor?

[19:09] Soro Dagostino: I believe it would be good for AA and CDS to be joined.

[19:10] Delia Lake: i have 2 reasons for requesting that the sims stay where they are right now

[19:10] Tor Karlsvalt: not sure, but Arria's recent post aluded to changes in AA

[19:10] Tor Karlsvalt: that might be necessary

[19:10] Ranma Tardis: why?

[19:11] Tor Karlsvalt: donno Ranma

[19:11] Delia Lake: 1 is that if we were to move the AA sims somewhere else i would want to do a careful exploration of what might be a compatible neighborhood

[19:11] Tor Karlsvalt: But it sounded threatening

[19:11] Carolyn Saarinen: Pfft

[19:11] Micael Khandr: Lots on the forums sound threatening :)

[19:11] Ranma Tardis: Rose owns the sims as far as ll is concerned

[19:11] Delia Lake: and secondly it is my belief that this merger under current conditions cannot be successful. but that does not mean that things might not change in the future.

[19:11] Rose Springvale: not true

[19:12] Rose Springvale: VDI owns them Ranma

[19:12] Rose Springvale: hi jamie

[19:12] Ranma Tardis: not the cds

[19:12] Delia Lake: hi Jamie

[19:12] Micael Khandr: Yes, the VDI non-profit is the owner

[19:12] Jamie Palisades waves, nods

[19:12] Soro Dagostino: Well! Mr Palisades, I believe?

[19:12] Delia Lake: rose does not own the AA sims, VDI does

[19:13] Ranma Tardis: though ll has rose as the owner

[19:13] Soro Dagostino: Stayed under cover and nary a peep!

[19:13] Delia Lake: no, Ranma, that is not how LL handles nonprofits

[19:13] Rose Springvale: no ranma, but we can explain that in detail later

[19:13] Micael Khandr: So, could we hear from each of you your own thoughts/feelings about the merger and the idea of de-merging?

[19:13] Ranma Tardis: not Sudane

[19:14] Ranma Tardis: well the CDS is not the Neualtenberg Project and is very different from the beginning group

[19:14] Callipygian Christensen: I believe it's time to insist on an audit of te financials for the year, to establish the financial actions necessary for a demerger

[19:15] Carolyn Saarinen: The rest of CDS is not a non-profit, it does have a single EO

[19:15] Ranma Tardis: the cds has lots of money on the books but does it really?

[19:15] Rose Springvale: Calli, i've got the figures. They have ignored the reports readily available on the hippo site.

[19:15] Tor Karlsvalt: Calli I agree, but see that as a huge proplem

[19:15] Tor Karlsvalt: problem

[19:15] Ranma Tardis: insulted you too

[19:15] Rose Springvale: i don't think money is an issue if we demerge

[19:16] Rose Springvale: we are within a hundred dollars of prepaid tier on both sides

[19:16] Callipygian Christensen: Rose, I dont doubt that..but if the Virgin Mary herself stood up and said they were correct, there would be claims you had bribed her

[19:16] Rose Springvale: hi Seb

[19:16] Ranma Tardis: nods

[19:16] Carolyn Saarinen: LOL

[19:16] Rose Springvale: again, not worried about the money issues. its never been about money

[19:16] Sebastian Glitterbuck: o/

[19:16] Ranma Tardis: such small amounts too

[19:17] Callipygian Christensen: SO, since one of the points all along is that VDI is a RL org, I think it has an olbligation to request this so any demerger leaves AA in the financial situation it should be

[19:17] Soro Dagostino: It hasn't . . . its been control.

[19:17] Delia Lake: hi Sebastian

[19:17] Micael Khandr: I think for me, it is about AA's ability to develop its own way of doing representative democracy that may be different in tone and procedure from CDS

[19:17] Soro Dagostino: Exenophobic control.

[19:17] Rose Springvale: that's kind of the next step, what we need to do is figure out if that's what we want as a community

[19:18] Ranma Tardis: I want to learn more about Islaum (cant spell)

[19:18] Soro Dagostino: Nor can I! LOL

[19:18] Micael Khandr: We had a town hall meeting this morning here, and the majority of those there favored a 'de-merger', some hesitantly and some with great desire.

[19:18] Ranma Tardis: things in Iraq were strange

[19:18] Tor Karlsvalt: me neither

[19:18] Ranma Tardis: not what you see on tv

[19:19] Delia Lake: and 1 or 2 wanting to keep the merger as well

[19:19] Micael Khandr: Yes

[19:19] Tor Karlsvalt: i really am not a citizen of AA, so I don't count.

[19:19] Ranma Tardis: if I want petty politics, I would run for mayor of Claremore OK

[19:19] Micael Khandr: Ouch

[19:19] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I was one who thinks AA would gain on the merger

[19:20] Tor Karlsvalt: Really CDS will gain.

[19:20] Callipygian Christensen: oK, I'll dive in - I want to have a place to spend time, work on art, enjoy good company in an atmosphere of honesty and trust

[19:20] Tor Karlsvalt: look around

[19:20] Micael Khandr: Do you want to repeat some of your thoughts from this morning MY?

[19:20] Ranma Tardis: me too with my friends

[19:20] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes...

[19:20] Tor Karlsvalt: these are some of othe most active members of CDS here

[19:20] Rose Springvale: calli, finish the thought?

[19:20] Rose Springvale: do you feel that is with AA in CDS?

[19:20] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think the agressions will calm after this summer

[19:21] Callipygian Christensen: I don't feel that about CDS at this point in time

[19:21] muhammedyussif Wikinger: The agressions is the only way to demerge- to scare AA away

[19:21] Ranma Tardis: sorry my friend, this is a low point

[19:21] Callipygian Christensen: Today i read a post that totally contradicted everything the poster has said to e in conversation - if I want this much drama I can go to RL and turn on my TV

[19:21] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think AA needs the structure of CDS and it is also good for the economy

[19:22] muhammedyussif Wikinger: done

[19:22] Micael Khandr: TY MY

[19:22] Soro Dagostino: Hmmm, should have read the postings . .

[19:22] Delia Lake: what structure do you think is important to AA, muhammed?

[19:23] muhammedyussif Wikinger: the RA and the SC and the rules

[19:23] muhammedyussif Wikinger: and Chansellor

[19:23] Delia Lake: ok. ty

[19:23] Tor Karlsvalt: I think AA could eventually influence CDS demeanor but I can't ask everyoen to continue suffering.

[19:23] Tor Karlsvalt: it would take some more sufferig before a change really occured.

[19:23] Sebastian Glitterbuck: aggression? what have i been missing...

[19:24] Jamie Palisades smiles. I see thre kindsw of suffering. One is,I feel sure, real -- Rose has not been able to lay off much of the AA EO duty that she hoped to transfer to CDS.

[19:24] Soro Dagostino: Not reading the forum.

[19:24] Ranma Tardis: the people in the cds serve the government not the government serve the people of the cds

[19:24] Jamie Palisades: *three kinds

[19:24] Bromo Ivory is Online

[19:24] muhammedyussif Wikinger: If the merger continue their will be no reason to continue fighting

[19:24] Jamie Palisades: The secodn is aggro politics between a few of you and a few of the CDS people.

[19:24] Ranma Tardis: it would get worse

[19:24] Jamie Palisades: Frankly, not the majority - in either land

[19:24] Annie Obscure is Online

[19:24] Jamie Palisades: but the fighters are damant on both sides, and clerly the opinion leaders

[19:24] Jamie Palisades: *clearly

[19:25] Jamie Palisades: and finally, I have heard oen or two people voice a real, undervalued ohilopshic question

[19:25] Callipygian Christensen: In reading the various posts it seeems there was a fudnamental difference in how those who are vocal, and on EA, in CDS saw the vision of the merger, and how those in AA saw it..I dont see how that will change or improve in the current climate

[19:25] Soro Dagostino: Adamant?

[19:25] Jamie Palisades: Micael particularly, though he;s being neutral moderatopr today

[19:25] Micael Khandr: I said this morning that I thought the year of merger was a chance for CDS and AA to fall in love with each other . . .

[19:25] Micael Khandr: But I don't see that happening

[19:25] Delia Lake: i wish i could believe that the nastiness and name calling and continual repeating of misinformation would stop if the merger were to remain but i don't see that happening unfortunately

[19:26] Jamie Palisades: that being - is the basic structure of CDS government really debatring and thus really antihetical to AA's desired tone?

[19:26] Jamie Palisades: Deliua, name calling existed in CDS .. and AA .. before anyone asked for a merger

[19:26] Carolyn Saarinen: It's not debating it's rowing, there's a difference

[19:26] Jamie Palisades chuckles. Both orgs got started by driving out their founders, no?

[19:26] Carolyn Saarinen: No Michel left

[19:27] Sebastian Glitterbuck: yup

[19:27] Carolyn Saarinen: No one drove him

[19:27] Jamie Palisades cants his head to the side a little. No comment.

[19:27] Delia Lake: i know, Jamie.

[19:27] Ranma Tardis: Kendra was driven pot

[19:27] Ranma Tardis: out *blushes*

[19:27] Jamie Palisades: But - still - is the LEVEL of fractiousness in CDS just too much , as a baseline, for the community you want her?

[19:27] Carolyn Saarinen whispers: I mean no one drove him out of AA specifically, so far as i know, there were people who were glad to see him leave SL

[19:28] Jamie Palisades: certainly there is more there than here.

[19:28] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS old gurard are scared of any strong willed person.

[19:28] Callipygian Christensen: Delia, I believe at least two of those wanting the demege have made it very clear they will never give up defending keeping CDS as it is..and it's one of the few things I believe them to be totally honest about.

[19:28] Micael Khandr: We are about halfway through our meeting time--I will push to have everyone share the thoughts about the merger before we end at 8 p.m.

[19:28] Jamie Palisades chuckles. Tell me about it, Tor

[19:28] Tor Karlsvalt: so much of this is about personal trust or distrust.

[19:28] Jamie Palisades: Micael, i'd still like to heard from VDI what they thnk the fiscal feasbility of AA is on its own

[19:28] Ranma Tardis: my thoughts are to end it and focus on our community

[19:28] Jamie Palisades: (Yes, Tor, I believe so, unfortunately)

[19:28] Soro Dagostino: There is clearly not a sense of camaraderie

[19:29] Rose Springvale: jamie, AA breaks even at about 80% occupancy

[19:29] Jamie Palisades: is continued separate survival feaisble? A few years ago that was a real quetsion here.

[19:29] Rose Springvale: we are at about 95%

[19:29] Sebastian Glitterbuck: \o/

[19:29] Ranma Tardis: I could help in a pinch

[19:29] Micael Khandr: I think a de-merger might allow both CDS and AA to develop better on their own . . . and perhaps with some more growth and maturity, there can be a reconciliation in the future (I'm sounding like a marriage couselor . . .)

[19:29] Delia Lake: at this tims so far as we can see the numbers work

[19:29] Tor Karlsvalt: haha

[19:30] Delia Lake: that's my thought also Micael

[19:30] Rose Springvale: and there are several people who want to do some grant searching, so there is room for that too

[19:30] Tor Karlsvalt: maybe we should have begun with compline

[19:30] Jamie Palisades: so VDI expects it to continue fairly well. WHat about the 6-month pay-all-at-once cash flow issue?

[19:30] Ranma Tardis: spend more money on domestic help than owing a sim

[19:30] Micael Khandr: :)

[19:30] Jamie Palisades: sort of implies a cash resserve to float aagainst, right?

[19:30] Laraa Short is Online

[19:30] Jamie Palisades: or continued leaning on someone;s credit cards

[19:30] Delia Lake: yes, Rose, i was going to add the possibility of applying for grants

[19:30] Jamie Palisades: (just like Caledon ultimately goes up & down with Des)

[19:31] Ranma Tardis: money is so stupid, I could make up any difference

[19:31] Rose Springvale: lots of options Jamie. I believe CDS began by floating bonds

[19:31] Namav Abramovic: Hello, I run a shop in the al andalus Souk, so I am always concerned about al andalus... I rise or fall based on al andalus rising and falling

[19:31] Ranma Tardis: yes

[19:31] Jamie Palisades: soo .. short answer - no foreseen feaisbility probs?

[19:31] Jamie Palisades: *feasibility

[19:31] Rose Springvale: hi namav, welcome :)

[19:31] Tor Karlsvalt: There could be one

[19:31] Micael Khandr: Yes?

[19:31] Tor Karlsvalt: getting AA tier from CDS

[19:32] Delia Lake: there are always forseeable problems, Jamie

[19:32] Soro Dagostino: never thought that AA couldn't survive on its own.

[19:32] Jamie Palisades: well, let's say "no showstopers" then :)

[19:32] Jamie Palisades: Soro, at the time I heard different :)

[19:32] Rose Springvale: as i said before Tor, they owe us about what we would owe them. because the sims are on different tier dates

[19:32] Jamie Palisades: but that was then

[19:32] Jamie Palisades: and this is now

[19:32] Delia Lake: the sl participation does depend somewhat on the state of rl economies over which we have no control whatsoever

[19:32] Ranma Tardis: what do we owe them?

[19:32] Soro Dagostino: I see that.

[19:33] Rose Springvale: the've prepaid tier on the four outlying sims to september

[19:33] Micael Khandr: Sunrise in AA!

[19:33] Ranma Tardis: about 1k?

[19:33] Soro Dagostino: Not on the left coast of the US.

[19:33] Nisha Aie is Offline

[19:34] Rose Springvale: when i figured it last week it was less, about 600 usd

[19:34] Delia Lake: lol, one might posit that the US has 2 left coasts :))

[19:34] Soro Dagostino: AA has adopted the methodology to survice. The use of the Non-profit.

[19:34] Soro Dagostino: survive*

[19:35] Ranma Tardis: everything in the cds is about money

[19:35] Soro Dagostino: The Xenophobics in CDS will never see why.

[19:35] Micael Khandr: And we should be a non-profit, because as Calli says most of us are interested in educational and artistic concerns

[19:36] Soro Dagostino: Sorry Pip, but there is a lot of that in Timo and Arrias statements.

[19:36] Tor Karlsvalt: Oahu is a non-profit btw

[19:36] Micael Khandr: And, having been in AA before the merger, I see that our two cultures are very, very different.

[19:36] Rose Springvale: one of the issues that has come up lately is that we don't want representative democracy. how do you feel about that?

[19:36] Tor Karlsvalt: not too educational

[19:36] Delia Lake: our neighbor sim, Tor?

[19:36] Tor Karlsvalt: yes

[19:37] Pip Torok: who is "we", Rose?

[19:37] Rose Springvale: the people of al andalus

[19:37] Namav Abramovic: sounding like an ill-conceived merger of opposites, to my newbie ears......

[19:37] Ranma Tardis: tyranny of the majority? no safeguards in place for the minority

[19:37] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I think representative democracy has been intruiging

[19:37] Pip Torok: Does the meeting feel Rose is right?

[19:38] Rose Springvale: i asked a question, nothing to be "right" about

[19:38] Carolyn Saarinen: It's an accusation that's been thrown

[19:38] Micael Khandr: I think it is possible to have representative democracy and not have it be the CDS model, and that is what I am interested in experimenting with, and why I think we should do that as AA.

[19:38] Carolyn Saarinen: we had our informal democracy before, we can refine it.

[19:38] Sebastian Glitterbuck: direct democracy always worked well for AA in the past

[19:38] Delia Lake: i am most interested in and very much for democracy. some of the early documents of Neualtenberg talk about "forms" of democracy, not a single form

[19:38] Carolyn Saarinen: the CDS way is -thankfully - not the only way

[19:38] Micael Khandr: I don't understand your question, Pip?

[19:39] Soro Dagostino: The "New England" town meeting.

[19:39] Ranma Tardis: yes and the 3 groups balanced each other out

[19:39] Tor Karlsvalt: really in a small group direct democracy probably works best

[19:39] Jamie Palisades: There is, by the way, no reason that the VDI board could not mke itself as much subject to democratic power here as the CDS officers are expected to in CDS.

[19:39] Carolyn Saarinen: yes not all the CDS beaurocracy

[19:39] Ranma Tardis: the RA in the CDS has all of the power

[19:39] Micael Khandr: True, Jamie

[19:39] Jamie Palisades: Of ourse, (grin at Micael), you;d have to wokr our exactly HOW the citizens have influence over the board

[19:40] Micael Khandr: And that can be a part of our alternative model

[19:40] muhammedyussif Wikinger: I joined CDS because the muslim ideas did not get attention here

[19:40] Soro Dagostino: The RA in CDS is a bunch of squaking chickens in the morning.

[19:40] Jamie Palisades: SPeaking at their former leader, SOro

[19:40] Pip Torok: I asked whether those at this meeting agree whether "the people of AA" are or are not in favour of representational Democracy, Micael

[19:40] Callipygian Christensen: Pip, that is something that has been said in more than one furm post iirc, by resdients of CDS who are RA mewmbers, so yes, I think it is an accurate statement.

[19:40] Jamie Palisades: :) of which we have 3 in the room

[19:40] Soro Dagostino: INdeed

[19:40] Micael Khandr: But that can be done, especially if we know it is us doing it for us

[19:40] Micael Khandr: I don';t agree

[19:41] Jamie Palisades: :/ but pip's asking what THIS group wants. Fair question

[19:41] Callipygian Christensen: and that is lagged and replies to way back when you questioned Rose

[19:41] Callipygian Christensen sighs

[19:41] Micael Khandr: I don't agree that "we" think that, Pip--"we" just want some alternatives to how it is accomplished

[19:42] Pip Torok: thank you, Micael

[19:42] Micael Khandr: YW

[19:42] Rose Springvale: wait, what do you not agree that we think?

[19:42] Micael Khandr: We have a bit more than 15 minutes eft--let's make sure all have had an opportunity to share who want to

[19:43] Jamie Palisades: Let me just mention - to say i don;t like the RA system is not to abandon democracy. :) representative democracy does not have to follow the strong-squabbling-legislature faction model

[19:43] Carolyn Saarinen: I think it's been generally agreed Rose that AA does not consisto f some anti-democratic conspiracy created to wreck CDS!

[19:43] Soro Dagostino: I am troubled by the "we" vs "us" aspect of this discussion.

[19:43] Micael Khandr: Yes, that's my point, Jamie

[19:43] Rose Springvale: thanks

[19:43] Jamie Palisades: Been that way all year, Soro, smile, shrug

[19:43] Ranma Tardis: they are parinoid

[19:44] Rose Springvale: sighs

[19:44] Ranma Tardis: paronoid

[19:44] Jamie Palisades: which they? heh heh

[19:44] Soro Dagostino: the effort could be resolved with courtesy and acknowledgement of the other opinions.

[19:44] Ranma Tardis: the movers in the cds

[19:44] Delia Lake: i think that many times representative democracy not only works well but is the best model. representative democracy is not the only form of democracy that works well though

[19:44] Micael Khandr: Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't after you . . . :)

[19:44] Ranma Tardis: they once a year make a foe and drive them out

[19:44] Carolyn Saarinen: Yep Ranma

[19:44] Soro Dagostino: Movers?!

[19:44] Rose Springvale: we do it

[19:44] Ranma Tardis: it happens every year

[19:44] Tor Karlsvalt: true, some swiss town still use direct democracy i think

[19:44] Rose Springvale: because some of us are them

[19:45] Sebastian Glitterbuck is getting confused. who's on first?

[19:45] Rose Springvale: smiles

[19:45] Jamie Palisades whispers - no, Who is the Estate Onwer

[19:45] Ranma Tardis: the leaders of the first coup are in charge of the cds

[19:45] Delia Lake splits herself down the middle with 1 side AA and the other side CDS

[19:45] Soro Dagostino: Scream of conciousness . . .

[19:45] Jamie Palisades: What's the chancellor.

[19:45] Soro Dagostino: :))

[19:46] Rose Springvale: poor seb

[19:46] Delia Lake: love that Soro :))

[19:46] Rose Springvale: don't worry, its still less complicated than Austin :)

[19:46] Ranma Tardis: you should try the federal government

[19:46] Soro Dagostino: Need to make some sense of this entire debacle.

[19:46] Micael Khandr: OK--ten minutes all--anyone who hasn't ahred how they feel about the merger/de-merger?

[19:46] Sebastian Glitterbuck: oh in Austin its simple, environmentalists are good and developers are evil

[19:47] Namav Abramovic: I would vote against anything that could lead to US Congress-style paralysis. Sims must be able to rapidly adapt and change, or they stagnate and perish. I've seen it happen all too often

[19:47] Soro Dagostino: Same in Sacramento.

[19:47] Sebastian Glitterbuck: and cap metro is corrupt

[19:47] Rose Springvale: (until you get to the state house Sebastian1)

[19:47] Carolyn Saarinen: Focus please

[19:47] Micael Khandr: Thank you Caro :)

[19:47] Soro Dagostino: Vote?

[19:47] Ranma Tardis: AA needs to find its own path

[19:47] Soro Dagostino: AA should stayl.

[19:47] Soro Dagostino: stay*

[19:47] Carolyn Saarinen: stay where?

[19:48] Micael Khandr: No vote--sharing of opinions, and we'll all get a sense of the majority view

[19:48] Soro Dagostino: With the confederation.

[19:48] Pip Torok agrees with Ranma

[19:48] Rose Springvale: soro, muhammed has shared why he thinks that, why do you?

[19:48] Delia Lake: there is another issue that bothers me with the merger in the current state of affairs

[19:49] Delia Lake: and i'll say after Soro speaks

[19:49] Soro Dagostino: Because its the best thing to do.

[19:49] Rose Springvale: for AA?

[19:49] Soro Dagostino: For both.

[19:49] Ranma Tardis: it would allow us to concentrate on the mission instead of petty politics

[19:49] Tor Karlsvalt: True, without AA, CDS will likely recede into a backwater.

[19:50] Delia Lake: what do you see as the benefits, Soro?

[19:50] Micael Khandr: Ranma--are you in favor of merger or de-merger by your comment?

[19:50] Carolyn Saarinen: They'd like it there!

[19:50] Rose Springvale: (are we transcripting?)

[19:50] Ranma Tardis: that people of different faiths and groups can get along

[19:50] Micael Khandr: Maybe :)

[19:50] Soro Dagostino: We could show the world.

[19:51] Tor Karlsvalt: umm there is a cutlural difference

[19:51] Delia Lake: if it wasn't asked in the beginning, is it ok if we transcript this meeting, people?

[19:51] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS seems rather anti-religion

[19:51] Ranma Tardis: sure

[19:51] Soro Dagostino: Not as bad as in Iraq.

[19:51] Micael Khandr: It wasn't asked in the beginning--sorry :(

[19:51] Ranma Tardis: been there done that

[19:51] Rose Springvale: Tor, one of the foundations of AA is the respect for religion, or no religion.

[19:51] Sebastian Glitterbuck: ok with me

[19:51] Soro Dagostino: Consent

[19:51] Carolyn Saarinen: They ha\ve their own irrational faith

[19:51] Ranma Tardis: got hurt in Iraq from an IED

[19:51] Tor Karlsvalt: consent

[19:51] Lilith Ivory: okwith me

[19:52] Soro Dagostino: I am here, and I am a follower of George.

[19:52] Micael Khandr: George?

[19:52] Tor Karlsvalt: true rose, but CDS seem anti

[19:52] Soro Dagostino: Carlin

[19:52] Ranma Tardis: am not mad at anyone, it is counterproductive

[19:52] Delia Lake: that's what i was hoping, Soro, that together the citizens of these sims would be a rich and vibrant participatory democracy where many ideas and projects could flourish

[19:52] Rose Springvale: some people in CDS may, but they don't really speak for the whole.

[19:52] Soro Dagostino: I think we can do that.

[19:53] Lilith Ivory: I´m concerned some in the CDS might try to destroy AA as it is now :(

[19:53] Delia Lake: we still may be able to do that, but i don't see it happening right now

[19:53] Soro Dagostino: How?

[19:53] Ranma Tardis: they only can if we let them

[19:53] Delia Lake: i am concerned about that also, Lilith

[19:53] Namav Abramovic: "different groups getting along" that can only work with a willing partner. The question is if we have that

[19:53] Tor Karlsvalt: Read Arria's last post

[19:54] Soro Dagostino: Damn it, the majority is not in the complaning parties.

[19:54] Tor Karlsvalt: she has plans.

[19:54] Jamie Palisades: huh. i agree, i don't see how.

[19:54] Soro Dagostino: Especially Arra

[19:54] Micael Khandr: So I am going to go out on a limb here and say what I think I'm hearing :) The majority want to 'de-merge', some strongly and some with some regret. A few individuals want to stay in the merger.

[19:54] Micael Khandr: Is that correct?

[19:54] Namav Abramovic: yes

[19:54] Lilith Ivory: loosing non profit status, reparceling without thinking and so on

[19:54] muhammedyussif Wikinger: yes

[19:54] Ranma Tardis: am sad at the thought but we tried

[19:54] Tor Karlsvalt: Right lil

[19:55] Rose Springvale: one point being made should be noted, and it was made earlier as well

[19:55] Delia Lake: AA is set up as a nonprofit. to insist on turning AA into functioning like a for profit would jeopardize the whole of AA

[19:55] Carolyn Saarinen: Certainly some colours have been nailed to masts on the forums

[19:55] Rose Springvale: people friendly to AA are currently in majority in the CDS

[19:55] Soro Dagostino: Indeed, that's my count

[19:55] Rose Springvale: there are methods in the government of CDS, if used and recognizd, to push through.

[19:55] Lilith Ivory: right

[19:55] Rose Springvale: the question is do we want to push

[19:55] Ranma Tardis: their petty fights will destroy us

[19:55] Carolyn Saarinen: well Rose, they keep very quiet

[19:55] Micael Khandr: there is always dual citizenship . . . :)

[19:56] Rose Springvale: smile

[19:56] Soro Dagostino: Stand up and be counted.

[19:56] Soro Dagostino: Your giving away the show.

[19:56] Namav Abramovic: SL isn't letting me stand up

[19:56] Soro Dagostino: Hehehe

[19:56] Rose Springvale: my biggest problem is lack of cooperation from the exec office. and i've done all the fence mending i know how to do to accomplish it

[19:57] Rose Springvale: i hate to contemplate impeachment

[19:57] Namav Abramovic: my avatar is frozen, seriously

[19:57] Soro Dagostino: No need.

[19:57] Rose Springvale: as i still feel strongly about both communities

[19:57] Ranma Tardis: you can stay in the cds

[19:57] Delia Lake: me too, Rose

[19:57] Soro Dagostino: The term will soon be over.

[19:57] Tor Karlsvalt: I have to say that I look at this group. You are all some of the most active members of CDS. If AA splits many of you will probalby spend all or most of your energy here in AA.

[19:57] Micael Khandr: OK--I think I hear an affirmation of what I heard, stated earlier. If it alright with all, I'm suggesting we close the formal part of the meeting and end transcripting.

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